Sustainable Tourism with Jeff Smith, Six Senses Hotels Resorts Spas
This is a transcript of the podcast interview recorded for Sustainability Explored on 21 of May 2020.
This is Season 2 Episode 34.
You can listen to it here, or join on any of your favorite podcast platforms.
Anna: [00:00:07] Hi everyone and warm welcome to episode #34 of Sustainability Explored, a podcast where we discover and explore different shapes of sustainability in business and economy.
Most of you already know that… Every week I invite one leading professional in the field of sustainability across industries to share his or her views on the present and future of the world through the prism of sustainable development.
For those of you who are new to this show — my name is Anna Chashchyna and I am the podcast host of Sustainability Explored, I am a sustainability consultant as well. For the past 5 years, I have been acting as an environmental and social compliance link between investment projects in renewable energy and energy efficiency, and international financial institutions, like IFC, EBRD, EIB, OPIC now and so on.
Less than a year ago I set up this podcast — first, to document myself and my work in the intersection of environment and finance, and after that, well, to be more precise — exactly 10 episodes later, to broaden my horizons in the very exciting sphere of sustainability. I started to invite guests for the interviews.
By the way, 1st episode of Sustainability Explored podcast was released on May 30 2019, so exactly last year.
And I am working on a bonus episode that I am gonna release in a week, on a show’s anniversary, so if you have any specific questions — don’t hesitate to hit me up on LinkedIn, connect, reach out, and send me your question. It can be anything: sustainability, podcasting itself, career question, I don’t know, anything that bugs you!
I’d be happy to answer all of them in the episode:)
Anna: [00:02:09] Anyway! The topic for this week’s episode is sustainable tourism!
- how the industry is staying afloat despite the closure of hotels and restaurants;
- the beautiful corporate social responsibility initiatives that were introduced against all odds — and what kind of а role did TRUE LEADERSHIP had to play in it;
- how to build a quality and long-lasting relationship with a community, as well as clients;
- and finally — how to leave the crisis, how to exit it in a better state than the industry of tourism has actually entered it.
Jeff is a Vice President of Sustainability at Six Senses Hotels-Resorts-Spas, he is driving corporate sustainability initiatives in the luxury hotel and spa industry — across 30+ business units plus an expanding development pipeline.
Jeff is a high-class professional with a decade of experience launching community-based tourism programs, where he focused on capacity building and facilitating connections between travelers, indigenous communities, and the natural world.
All of this is to say — we have an insanely insightful, inspiring, and interesting interview ahead — join in!
[00:03:44] Music intro.
Anna: [00:03:47] Hi, Jeff. Thank you for joining me today at Sustainability Explored. I’m very pleased to have you here with me today.
We will be talking about sustainability initiatives in tourism and in hotel sphere in general.
Jeff, could you please tell me a bit more: when did you start in the sphere of sustainability? What drives you to work in it today? And how is it going in the hotels?
Jeff: [00:04:24] Sure. Hi, Anna. Thanks for having me on your podcast. It’s great to be here.
My sustainability journey started when I was a kid growing up watching wildlife documentaries like David Attenborough shows on TV. I’ve always been just really into the environmental side of sustainability.
I studied environmental engineering and then kind of ran away from my desk and ended up in the jungles of Thailand working with elephants and remote communities, which is how my career kind of led into sustainable tourism because there’s a big tourism component to elephant management with Thailand’s elephants in those communities. So, that’s kind of my background and where I’ve come from for sustainability.
And how are things in hotels and tourism? Well, right now there’s not a lot going on tourism and hotels. It’s pretty quiet. But perhaps this is a great opportunity for the industry to take stock and kind of step back and look at how we do things and how we can do things better.
And maybe for tourists and travelers alike also to take a, you know, a second thought about what motivates us to travel and what makes travel so fantastic for people as an experience.
And really at the core of that, I do believe there’s a big component of sustainability intrinsically embedded into travel and tourism. So, there’s a lot that, I think, sustainable tourism has to offer the world, and I think a lot that sustainability has to offer travel and tourism.
Anna: [00:05:57] In your definition, what is sustainable tourism? If I am, let’s say a tourist, how can I make sure I’m doing it in a sustainable way? I’m not harming.
Jeff: [00:06:06] Well, it’s tough to answer that, right. So, part of it should be lowering impact through the travel process. And of course, carbon and climate have a big part of that too.
Sustainable tourism at its core, I think, is celebrating what’s unique about that destination. And that should mean protecting and really celebrating local culture, authentic culture, which is again, this is what motivates people to travel, is to see things that they don’t have at home.
And on the environmental side, it should be celebrating that beautiful local wildlife and environment and ecosystems, protecting them and enhancing them and really experiencing them.
Anna: [00:06:52] Now, in your position of Vice President of sustainability, what does that position specifically at “Six Senses’ encompass? What do you do? What is in your daily routines, normally, not in the time of crisis?
Jeff: [00:07:06] My routine hasn’t changed much during this current situation. In my role as Vice President of sustainability, I’m responsible for all of our operations, which is today 18 hotels, and around 36 spas spread around a dozen countries around the world. So, the sustainable operations of those businesses.
And then also the design and construction of new hotels and spas, which we do have a pretty robust development pipeline. So, there’s a lot of reviewing of drawings for new hotels and thinking about the programming that we’re going to put in place.
When it comes to the sustainable operations side, we have a system of sustainable operations guidelines that are issued to all of the business units. And that covers everything from housekeeping (and you know, “hang up your towels”) all the way through to having proper waste management facilities, sewage treatment, all the way through to our landscaping practices. And even what’s happening in the backs of our kitchens and all of it.
We have processes to review compliance with those guidelines, and we track metrics on our energy, water, and waste. We also track metrics on the fun stuff that we do. So, the benefits that we give to the world for our impacts as we like to think of them.
All those, the wheels are still turning and we’re still tracking those impacts. Even though in many of our hotels, we have no guests right now, but we still have our wildlife and we still have our communities. So, it’s still our responsibility to manage those as best we can.
Anna: [00:08:35] When you say, the wildlife, do I not know something about “Six Senses”?Is it unique in some way? Did you incorporate the wildlife into the hotel territory?
Jeff: [00:08:48] Yes, we think of sustainability. It needs to start from our responsibility to not destroy our local ecosystems and wildlife and not to damage our local communities.
So, that’s, as a starting point, as a what we think of as very minimum. And that’s contained in our guidelines and the way that we practice. So, like treating our sewage before it’s released into the environment. That’s sort of thing, cleaning products and all of that.
Then our aim though is to do much more than that. We don’t want to just not to destroy local environments.
Our aim is to actually be a regenerative business, so we want to give back more to our local environments and community than what we take.
So, we have funding set aside for that purpose. In each of our hotels, we have what we call our “Sustainability Fund”. This is probably a terrible name for the fund because it’s not directed for sustainability activities inside the hotel. It’s really for giving back.
So, it’s 0.5% of the revenue that gets set aside to be spent at the local level. It’s not a corporate fund. It’s kept at that business unit level to be spent on projects with clear outcomes to benefit the local environments and communities.
And it’s really open to navigating at that property, what’s required and what’s relevant in that location. So that funding really should be used to address the strategic risk to that business.
And by that, I mean things like looking at the local community and could we improve local education, the school down the road — do they need more resources? The health care system within the local area — do they need more resources? And — that’s the community side.
On the wildlife side, is this maybe a water-stressed region, and should we be working on access to water for communities.
Or maybe it’s drought issues for the environment, or are there any unique ecosystems or stressed habitats or endangered species in the local area.
And if there are, we would direct those funds towards, often in partnership with great local NGOs or third-party experts. Sometimes it’s the national parks or the local hospital, their local school, etc.
Working with them on projects that are gonna have positive impacts for those local ecosystems and communities.
Anna: [00:11:00] How do you decide about this fund? Per year, probably, all these revenues go to one specific country and one specific project? Or do you divide them somehow? Because the hotel is, if I understood right, the hotels are present all over the world. Turkey, Thailand, Maldives…
Jeff: [00:11:20] It actually doesn’t, the funds don’t move. So, they stay at the local level, which makes my job much more difficult because each hotel is completely unique. They have their own funded programs or projects that they’ve taken on. It doesn’t get pulled. It’s not regional. It doesn’t shift between different locations.
The revenue is set aside by our hotel Maldives sets aside a proportion of this portion of the revenue, and it’s going to, in that case, mostly marine conservation programs because it’s the Maldives! And that’s what so relevant there.
They also do have a great community program that they’re running with their local islands. So, in that case, it actually doesn’t leave their atoll.
It’s for the most part that stays within their own atoll and it’s spent there.
And then, moving over to Douro Valley in Portugal. Their funds stay in their local communities, regionally within that part of Portugal. So, it’s not even national level spending. We really want to keep it local.
And that’s because we feel that’s what important to that hotel. To make it something that’s really relevant to that hotel’s operation. This goes back to my comment earlier, is that we want these funds to be addressing strategic risk to that business.
By spending on that local community.
That’s where our people: they get sick, they’re going to use that hospital. Our people, their families are going to those schools down the road.
And eventually, we want to hire out of those schools. That’s our hiring pool. So we’re strengthening our own capacity, in terms of human resources by investing in our local communities.
So, that’s what we see it: there is a business case or a strategic component to this aspect of sustainability.
It’s not philanthropy.
It’s not just randomly giving these funds away to the projects that are not connected to the business.
Anna: [00:12:57] That’s so smart what you say and what you do. Especially now I see it with the current Coronavirus. If the country is not rebuilt inside of it (and now all the borders are closed), even the wealthiest of the wealthy (the politicians, the government officials) cannot suddenly fly to Israel or Germany for their treatment.
All they’re left with is what they have here on spot. I really hope that this strategic long-term thinking will somehow come back to life with this stress, with this, on many levels, in many meanings — ecosystem stress.
Jeff: [00:13:40] Yeah. it’s an interesting point that you raised. Covid crisis or whatever you want to call it, it’s really exposing risks and stress to the system. And really, it’s our economic system that we’ve developed with really long, long supply chains.
And not always resources that are available locally, like in terms of health care and things like that, that all of a sudden, we’re forced to take a second look at. It’s a shock to the system and it’s really testing the resilience of that system. And in many cases, we’re finding it’s not resilient at all.
So, and this is something we focus on a lot for sustainability with Six Senses as well. As we do, we look at our supply chains and we try to source locally as much. As much as we can.
For many reasons, not only to have a stronger business that’s a more resilient business but also so that we’re supporting our local economies. Because then we’re helping our local communities.
And you know, back to what we were talking about earlier is: why do people travel?
They want to see these vibrant, unique, local cultures and communities. So, we need strong communities.
A great way to do that is to source locally, so they have an economic partnership with us in the hotel business.
We also grow a lot of our own food.
We do that already. Just because, well, lots of reasons. We think it’s fun and cool.
We like to know that our food is organic, cause we’re growing organic produce. We have a lot of resorts by nature have a lot of landscaping space. And we like to really think of our landscaping spaces in terms of production values.
With coconut trees and coconuts falling from those trees we make coconut oil. We make coconut palm sugar from our coconut trees in the Maldives.
Up in Douro Valley in Portugal, I mentioned earlier, we have beautiful gardens where we have orange trees that are now blossoming.
We have a herb garden.
We make our own fruits and vegetables that normally would go into the kitchens to supplement the food.
And there’s a delicate dance because we also want to support local farmers.
Herbs are great because usually, you can’t get them all locally from local farmers, we grow some of our own.
But in that case, in Portugal right now, we don’t have any guests because the hotel has been forced to close, so we’re actually gifting the food.
I think our general manager there in Portugal gave away 200 kilograms of fruit and vegetables to a local seniors’ home last week. Because we producing this food and because we’re not consuming it, we’re able to share it.
We do want play that role in our communities and our local economic ecosystem towards.
There is a bit of a “give and take” and we have relationships that we want to keep going through this time.
Anna: [00:16:18] What did it take to set up this strategy? And how long did it take?
Because it really honestly sounds like a lot of work and a lot of quality work. You were at the top of the sustainability, right? So, you were overseeing all these operations both internally in the hotel (waste, air, food, housekeeping, and so on) and externally in the community.
Who came up with the, first of all with the idea? And who rolled up the sleeves and said, okay, from today on, we live this way?
Jeff: [00:16:52] I definitely cannot take even most of the credit for this. It’s been part of Six Senses since the origin of the brand, which goes back to the 1990s.
The founders of Six Senses wanted to start a luxury… They wanted to do luxury resorts and spas and hospitality and to hit that top tier of luxury, in terms of service and quality for guests.
But they wanted to do it in a way that was completely turning it upside down inside. And think back to the 1990s, the luxury hotels really were like white gloves and buttoned up bow ties. Guests would have to wear certain clothes to go to restaurants.
You don’t see that today at all.
But that was the concept from the beginning, it was to break open this concept of luxury and see what people really want and to deliver that in a way that’s good for the local environment and it’s good for the local community.
So, that was actually the objective from day one. It’s really embedded in the strategy of the positioning of the hotel business, the brand in a way, but also in all of the way that we deliver our style of luxury hospitality.
All Six Senses always had organic gardens. We grow herbs.
Something I’ve been playing a role in from my position is expanding that, getting more and better systems to track that production.
So, we now actually have monthly reports that come in that we do track our energy, water waste.
We also track how many vegetables come out of the gardens, how many kilograms of compost we produced at every hotel, how many mushrooms are growing in our mushroom huts, which we do in most of the hotels now.
So, there are a few things that are, for lack of a better term, prescribed from our home office, our corporate office, to every business unit. But then within that framework, there’s still a lot of room for movement at the hotel level, and it’s still very organic. Which we want to maintain too.
We want to empower all of our leaders to find ways to improve their sustainability within their hotel, within the department, inside their hotel. There’s not too much, and I hope there’s not too much top-down kind of thinking of “you must do it like this”.
We don’t do a lot of cookie-cutter kind of management at Six Senses. It is very organic. And the strength of that is then our teams are able to come up with things that really do make a high impact on their unique situation.
I couldn’t, from sitting in Bangkok, I could never have told our general manager in Portugal that “there’s that old age home down the road and you have these tomatoes. Go deliver them.”
I don’t know who’s down the road and what’s coming out of the garden. But their team at the hotel saw that opportunity and they ran with it.
They told me after. And that’s great!
Having that freedom of movement at the individual unit level, I think is important. From my position, tracking the impacts is something that I feel is important and we’re getting better and better at doing and just motivating the teams to just keep making those impacts.
Just do what you can with what you’ve got.
Anna: [00:19:58] Sounds like a community of smart self-ignited, self -motivated people.
How about the culture in the company? Was it also something that just came from the top or self-started? This understanding of the value of nature, of environment, of society, of giving back meaningfully.
Jeff: [00:20:19] It was definitely there. I joined Six Senses in 2016. The culture was definitely there. And like I said, from back in the 1990s the origins of the brand.
The interesting thing with culture is that it needs to be nurtured and it needs consistently to be revisited and nurtured again and again, because, it’s a living and breathing thing and it evolves.
We do a lot to maintain our culture around sustainability.
Something that’s very important for us is that first off, every hotel has a sustainability manager.
That’s a full- time role. They report directly to the general manager and their job is to just keep driving through everything we do at the hotel, meeting with every different department, and just keeping things going.
Then we also ask every hotel to do at least once a month, during normal operations, at least once a month, they will host some kind of event where our teams are able to give back.
So, it might be as simple as going to the local community and walking around and picking up litter, picking up trash, maybe picking up trash on the neighboring beach. Or maybe it’s visiting the local school and helping out at the school or building a fence or painting the library.
One great example was in Six Senses Samui, in Thailand. They visited the local hospital and they built a playground at the hospital. So, the community can use that.
Having these opportunities to give back and it’s a great cause we accomplish.
We make an impact and it should make an impact. But really that’s not the reason why we do these events.
We do these events for culture.
So people are able to participate in and connect on a meaningful level to these programs and projects that we have to help the local community, to help the local environment.
Because it keeps it forefront in people’s minds, that this is real. This is something that we do, not something that we just talk about or just throw money at something that we do.
We can roll up our sleeves and get involved.
And that really helps with culture. That’s an important tool that we have to maintain — that culture — and it’s something that’s really important to maintain.
Anna: [00:22:18] Now that’s all the hotels and restaurants are on hold. I know one of one very interesting initiative that has started at Six Senses at this particular time is classes of biology online, Marine biology. Right?
Can you expand on that? What else is happening at Six Senses around the world to maintain this culture and sustainability impulses?
Jeff: [00:22:44] Yeah. So, I’m glad you picked up on our junior Marine biology program. I love the program. My son is doing it. He’s seven years old, and he’s enjoying it so far.
And it’s just, I’m so pleased. Again, I can’t take any credit for this. It was our team in the Maldives who put this together on their own.
I’ve been asking all of our hotel teams to think about what kind of content they can share to the world. And I do know we have a lot more to offer. So, stay tuned, there’ll be more coming soon :)
You’ll see a lot of the content we have there on our social media, the live broadcast now, a lot of it is wellness-focused and that’s a big important part of what we do too. And soon we’re going to start building on that with more focus, especially on the wildlife side.
It’s challenging to share content about our community work because there’s a very fine line to walk there between supporting and exploiting local communities if you’re filming them.
Or, you know, like, we’re not gonna, we don’t bring guests to visit the orphanage that we support.
That’s not ethical.
And for the same reasons, we wouldn’t film them.
But when it comes to wildlife - absolutely! And I think there’s a lot of people who are stuck at home. Like I am, I’m trapped in an apartment in Bangkok. I love seeing wildlife footage right now.
There is nothing better!
So, we have some plans to see more of our wildlife work.
We have some beautiful endangered langur monkeys in Vietnam that we will probably be sharing with the world very soon. We have, like you mentioned, all the Marine biology work in Maldives, and, hopefully a lot more to come in the coming weeks.
Anna: [00:24:18] Very cool. One piece of advice you could give to your peers, to someone that is in the hotel industry to pick up your lead.
Where to start maybe? Maybe something to be aware of?
Jeff: [00:24:33] I guess the kind of the nuts and bolts of sustainability for any facility, right, is energy, water and waste. Setting up some reasonable metric first, and then what measured can then be managed as the saying goes.
That’s just a basic starting point. That’s a good place to go.
I would also advise, particularly for hotels, I’d advise avoiding the flashy PR kind of side of sustainability.
Guests have become a little bit jaded around these areas.
Make sure it’s meaningful.
That’s my good advice.
I think for anyone who tells starting out, start from the basics: energy, water, and waste, and then think of some programs that you could do that really make an impact and that is meaningful and not just a gesture.
I could say the same about the “hang your hotel towels” policies.
Also, plastic straws is another one where getting rid of plastic straws is a great idea.
But if you look at all the plastic in your hotel- the plastic straws are maybe 1%. So rather than having a flashy policy of just removing the straws, it’s important to make it meaningful and go deeper and see where you can really make an impact.
Anna: [00:25:44] By the way, do the guests notice that there are, for example, no plastic straws or no straws. Did they come back to you to compliment, for example?
Jeff: [00:25:55] I hope they do. I don’t hear about it a lot from my apartment in Bangkok. Of course, we track feedback from our guests. We have a standards survey that goes to all of our guests post-stay and there are questions about: did we do enough for sustainability? Did you see anything, you know, that you didn’t like?
So, of course, and that’s important to have. I think guests do appreciate it. We have a space in our hotels that we’re building into all of our new hotels now for exactly that reason. And we call it Earth Lab.
In the past, going back in the 20-year history of our hotels, we’ve always done things like composting and growing our own vegetables.
We’ve never had plastic shampoo bottles. We’ve never had those from the beginning.
We got rid of our plastic water bottles in 2003, as we bottle our own drinking water in glass bottles. We got rid of all of our plastic straws. Our last plastic straw was out in 2016.
And we are aware that some guests might come and go and not realize that we do all this stuff. We always did that in all of these activities in the back of house, behind, where guests wouldn’t necessarily see it.
And what we’ve now done is we’ve created this space that we call Earth Lab.
So for the last couple of years we’ve had these kind of as a standard space at all of our Six Senses hotels that is a space dedicated for engagement and innovation around our sustainability work.
It’s in front of the house for guests to see it.
We’re hoping the guests will walk by and take a second look and ask “oh, what’s happening over here?” and maybe step inside and maybe learn something about how we…how to do composting at home, or, for example, at some of our hotels (and this is a tropical example) they’re growing lemongrass, and then they cut the lemongrass and use that as a replacement for the plastic straw.
So they’re growing their own straws, which is fun and interactive and guests can learn about that!
There’s workshops that happen in the Earth Labs so they can actually sign up where they can just drop in. And this is scheduled on our weekly events schedule and they can learn things like how to make the wax wraps.
Instead of using the cling wrap film in your kitchen at home, you can make these wraps, and then you can bring that home with you as a little souvenir. And did you know this is something you can do to avoid plastic at home?
Those are the kind of engagement opportunities that we’re seeking out with our guests.
And hopefully, guests know about what we’re doing for sustainability.
Hopefully they enjoy it or at least find it interesting.
Our aim to inspire and give guests that opportunity to make change in their world beyond their stay at the hotel and tell their friends and maybe take something home with them that they can do.
Anna: [00:28:36] What you shared with me right now makes me want to visit the Six Senses somewhere. Even just for the sake of this experience of sustainability practices that you implement there.
I was wondering, what do you use instead of plastic bottles, of shampoo, plastic bottles?
Jeff: [00:28:54] We have refillable ceramic bottles, like with pumps on the top. Some of them still have plastic pumps. We’re trying to switch. We’re trying to convert to metal pumps too, so they are fully plastic-free.
We do get the shampoo and the conditioner and the moisturizer… It does come into the hotel in big jugs of that are plastic, but it reduces our amount of plastic considerably.
And we’re looking for ways around that too.
Our strategy on plastic right now, we’re calling it “Plastic-free 2022” and that’s our goal.
This is our crazy, ambitious goal, which is to remove all plastic from our operations.
Starting with single-use and the history I’ve told you that we’ve gone through already of eliminating all these single use plastic items, we’re really trying now to just eliminate all plastic and take it as far as we can.
Anna: [00:29:44] Probably one last question. How do you wish the world changes in terms of sustainability after the crisis? How do you wish to find the hotelery in general? Is there anything?
Jeff: [00:29:58] There’s many changes I would like to see. And it’s not just because of Corona. But I think this gives everyone, and not just our industry, but every industry a great opportunity to step back and rethink strategy and, reevaluate risk.
If I could ask for one thing to change in hotels, I would ask for the energy supply to shift drastically away from fossil fuels and drastically towards renewable energy.
And I think that there’s this very strong economic case to be made for this. In addition to the obvious climate case to be made for shifting away from fossil fuels, but especially when you’re in a remote resort that’s running on diesel generators where the diesel fuel is being brought in by a barge.
Significant risk in that supply chain.
And if the fuel can’t come, how do you run the resort? Or if boats can’t travel because of something like COVID.
Maybe this is a wakeup call to the fact that there is risk in that supply chain and it’s an unnecessary risk?
Because you could be producing your own energy from renewable sources, which will eliminate that risk of supply.
But also strengthen your economic position because you don’t have the economic risk of now in a situation like this, with no revenue, you still have to run those diesel generators, so you have an ongoing cost. Whereas if you were running off solar panels today, you wouldn’t have that cost.
Anna: [00:31:27] Well, thank you very much. It was super cool talking today. I learnt a lot and I got inspired to visit one of the hotels somewhere. As soon as it’s just possible!
I wish you all the best of success in your sustainability efforts that already look impressive, but what’s to come is even more motivating.
Jeff: [00:31:50] Thank you.
Anna: [00:31:51] Ciao,ciao.
[00:31:52] Music outro.
Anna: [00:31:56] I hope you enjoyed this episode and learned something new from Jeff and maybe even myself today. If you have any questions, let me or Jeff know — please reach out to either of us on LinkedIn. We are always happy to engage in a conversation, chat a little bit or even a lot 😊
I also would like to invite you to check other related episodes out.
For example a recent episode called Circular Economy challenges and systemic change. This episode we recorded with Cliona Howie del Rio from EIT Climate-KIC about how the economy will change during and after the COVID-19 pandemic. A super interesting episode! Currently #1 in popularity in listenership on this podcast. So, definitely, something to check out.
Another episode that’s worth checking & that is somewhat related to what we’re discussing here today with Jeff is the episode with Giovanna Jagger called The culture of Impact & purpose. CSR — how to give back meaningfully.
For those of you who are new, maybe not familiar with the abbreviation, CSR stands for Corporate Social Responsibility.
I’d say these 2 of my Chapter 1 (or Season 1, meaning “I’ve just started”) — the next two episodes I would like to suggest you to go and listen to are: Corporate Social Responsibility: where is it going? AND Stakeholders: tips and tricks for successful engagement in a ‘green’ organization. These two are very similar mood-wise to this episode with Jeff we’ve just had.
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Thank you again very much! For listening, for being with us today, and..until next time, next Thursday!
Or actually — no, this week we will meet again — on Saturday — I am making an exception with the episode on the sustainability of work and home office, on how to stay mentally sane in this crazy self-isolated world. I invited a certified environmental psychologist, Lee Chambers, a colleague of ours from the UK — so don’t miss this one out!
To help you not to miss, I will just humbly remind you once again — subscribe to this podcast :)
Take care everyone, stay tuned, healthy, stay sustainable and stay home safely until the lockdown in your area is over!
It was very nice to have you all today, to have Jeff, and to record this episode for everyone listening on there.
Thank you! Ciao, ciao!
[00:36:14] Music outro
Podcast host Anna Chashchyna
Episode guest Jeff Smith
Transcript editor Anna Kharybina
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